TRMN

These are the official forums of The Royal Manticoran Navy: The Official Honor Harrington Fan Association 

  • Revised/Updated Offical Marksmanship Manual

  • Report on marksmanship events your chapter has undertaken (pictures and/or videos are very much encouraged), or discuss various board or online games that you've played through the marksmanship program, or even would like to be considered to be added into the program.
Report on marksmanship events your chapter has undertaken (pictures and/or videos are very much encouraged), or discuss various board or online games that you've played through the marksmanship program, or even would like to be considered to be added into the program.
 #29129  by Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff
 Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:26 pm
Vaclav Ujcik wrote:
Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:46 am
Sir Michael, with all due respect, in the previous post you asked people to step up and volunteer. CDR Otahal does just that and your answer is "No, we can't do that". He didn't say anything about releasing to the public. He was doing exactly what you asked. I'm very confused (and I'm probably not the only one) as to the message you're trying to communicate.
In Honor of the Queen,
It is as I said before. We cannot and do not release unfinished manuals. These works until made public they are subject to the Official Secrets Act established in Admiralty Order 0801-02 & revised in Order 1511-07

Sincerely,

Sir Michael J Timko
Commodore, RMN
Deputy Space Lord, BuComm
 #29130  by William Karnesky
 Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:47 pm
Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:26 pm
It is as I said before. We cannot and do not release unfinished manuals. These works until made public they are subject to the Official Secrets Act established in Admiralty Order 0801-02 & revised in Order 1511-07

Sincerely,

Sir Michael J Timko
Commodore, RMN
Deputy Space Lord, BuComm
AO1511-07 states the following documents are covered:
  1. The Online Membership Database
  2. Financial Documentations
  3. All Exams
  4. Any additional Documents relating to membership records or member finances
  5. Any Documents provided TRMN by BuNine, Words of Weber, or David Weber’s representatives, and deemed as covered by the First Lord of the Admiralty and First Space Lord.
  6. Any additional Documents or Systems voted on by the Admiralty
I would appreciate clarification as to which of these categories a draft copy of a manual club members are writing falls under and how.

Further, if it is due to Item #6, I seek more clarification as to why the Admiralty voted a manual that details how to record games played with other members of the club to be part of the Official Secrets Act, and why they cannot simply vote it to no longer be included as such.

Finally, I would really appreciate clarification regarding why the staff tactical officer to the First Lord of the Admiralty, Commander Jana Otahal, who is charged with promoting gaming within all of the TRMN -- of all people -- cannot be involved in the process regardless of the Official Secrets Act. It is deeply concerning that someone I would consider an essential part of the process is verboten -- if anyone should be able to help, it should be her given her position.

I think it only proper to mention that the current state of affairs has concerned me enough that earlier today before this topic had received more replies, I submitted a formal set of concerns to my Bosun and included my suggestions on how this process could be improved.

Sincerely,
William E. Karnesky Sr, CBM
Gunner's Mate 3/c, RMN
HMS Eardhsidh Kamerling

Edited 2019-04-28T16:28UTC-7 to correct Jana's pronouns.
Vaclav Ujcik liked this
 #29136  by Vaclav Ujcik
 Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:50 pm
Ya' know, respect runs both ways. I addressed you by title. I would have expected the same in return. But then, I also expected you to accept an offer of assistance. I guess it's just not my day. Hope you have a better one.
Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:26 pm
Vaclav Ujcik wrote:
Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:46 am
Sir Michael, with all due respect, in the previous post you asked people to step up and volunteer. CDR Otahal does just that and your answer is "No, we can't do that". He didn't say anything about releasing to the public. He was doing exactly what you asked. I'm very confused (and I'm probably not the only one) as to the message you're trying to communicate.
In Honor of the Queen,
It is as I said before. We cannot and do not release unfinished manuals. These works until made public they are subject to the Official Secrets Act established in Admiralty Order 0801-02 & revised in Order 1511-07

Sincerely,

Sir Michael J Timko
Commodore, RMN
Deputy Space Lord, BuComm
 #29137  by Laura Lochen, 1SL
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:36 am
Ok, let's step back a bit. We have taken care of the confusion and have clarified CDR Otahal's access to review and help on the manual.

However, this issue at this point isn't manual "review" its manual layout and production. BuComm is chronically short of technical help (layout, artists, tech people, etc)and I'm sure would love some folks to help in those areas. The time is longer than average and is more due to the shortage of that kind of help, hopefully, we have the process for these moving forward more quickly now.

An "open system" would definitely ensure significant eyes on the product and would also ensure a significant number of those people who have the draft will never replace the draft with the approved manual. I have seen that time and time again. So you would be incredibly frustrated to find out what you were playing or working on in marksmanship was no longer valid when you were done because your manual was an unapproved draft. It's better from my experience to release updated official releases so everyone knows the draft version they are working from is the latest.
 #29139  by William Karnesky
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:39 am
Laura Lochen, 1SL wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:36 am
Ok, let's step back a bit. We have taken care of the confusion and have clarified CDR Otahal's access to review and help on the manual.

However, this issue at this point isn't manual "review" its manual layout and production. BuComm is chronically short of technical help (layout, artists, tech people, etc)and I'm sure would love some folks to help in those areas. The time is longer than average and is more due to the shortage of that kind of help, hopefully, we have the process for these moving forward more quickly now.

An "open system" would definitely ensure significant eyes on the product and would also ensure a significant number of those people who have the draft will never replace the draft with the approved manual. I have seen that time and time again. So you would be incredibly frustrated to find out what you were playing or working on in marksmanship was no longer valid when you were done because your manual was an unapproved draft. It's better from my experience to release updated official releases so everyone knows the draft version they are working from is the latest.
Ma'am, I do not feel like my concerns are resolved at all. However, for the majority of them, I am willing to follow the proper chain and submit, in full, all my issues with the manual creation process. That said, I feel one part of your post deserves special attention:

How is the problem you stated about an open manual draft process any worse than going an entire year with no manual at all? We have already been functioning for a year off of incorrect guidelines because a "clarification" was just made on 2019-04-15 (1) that changed an official response that was originally made on 2018-04-04 (2).

I still don't understand
  • how copyright concerns and "professionalism" prohibit the release of a draft;
  • or why drafts for something so basic as the Marksmanship manual are considered under the Official Secrets Act;
  • or why people were asked to "step up" if such offers were just going to be refused;
  • or why we were told it was "in review", or "If it's not ready for MantiCon, it will be shortly afterwards", or other variations of "nearly complete" if it was not the case(3);
  • or simply whether or not future manuals can be released to the Wiki as BuTrain has done so and why we can't do that for this manual,
or a number of other issues -- but I will be content to follow those issues up through the official channels.

But if "confusion" or "frustration" is a concern that prevents an open process, well, we have that already -- and in spades -- so I fail to see what would be lost by changing to that hypothetical open process.

I'll leave this topic with a final thought: Bureaucracy is often defined as "a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape, and proliferation"(4). The manual process has taken over a year, this has been undeniably a source of confusion and frustration for many. Those concerned have been given multiple different and conflicting reasons why that is the case and no offers of revision to the process has been made. To me, all of it comes off as officialism and red tape and is discouraging to see when it is happening to what I believe should be one of the easiest ways to get involved in TRMN.

Having said my piece, I wish you and everyone else a wonderful week.

Sincerely,
William E. Karnesky Sr, CBM
Gunner's Mate 3/c, RMN
HMS Eardhsidh Kamerling

(1)“If you are *NOT* RMA or a Civilian Branch using the RMA Awards (SFC, Diplomatic Corps, Intelligence Corps), then the total hours combine for the purposes of the RMN Marksmanship Awards.” (viewtopic.php?p=28888#p28888)
(2) “So, if you're a Marksman with Pistol, Expert with Grenade and High Expert in Plasma Carbine, you'd wear the Pistol High Expert ribbon.” (viewtopic.php?f=567&t=6159)
(3) 2018-04-16 "I have been told the FLA has it for review at the moment." viewtopic.php?p=18298#p18298
2018-05-23 "We are completing the "Grand Alliance Marksmanship Program and Qualification Badges" manual as we speak. If it's not ready for MantiCon, it will be shortly afterwards" viewtopic.php?p=19686#p19686
2018-05-29 "It's just about ready!" viewtopic.php?p=19915#p19915
2018-11-18 "It will be soon" viewtopic.php?p=24518#p24518
(4) https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bureaucracy
 #29142  by Mike Timko 4SL / 6SL Staff
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:16 am
William Karnesky wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:39 am

Ma'am, I do not feel like my concerns are resolved at all. However, for the majority of them, I am willing to follow the proper chain and submit, in full, all my issues with the manual creation process. That said, I feel one part of your post deserves special attention:

How is the problem you stated about an open manual draft process any worse than going an entire year with no manual at all? We have already been functioning for a year off of incorrect guidelines because a "clarification" was just made on 2019-04-15 (1) that changed an official response that was originally made on 2018-04-04 (2).

I still don't understand
  • how copyright concerns and "professionalism" prohibit the release of a draft;
  • or why drafts for something so basic as the Marksmanship manual are considered under the Official Secrets Act;
  • or why people were asked to "step up" if such offers were just going to be refused;
  • or why we were told it was "in review", or "If it's not ready for MantiCon, it will be shortly afterwards", or other variations of "nearly complete" if it was not the case(3);
  • or simply whether or not future manuals can be released to the Wiki as BuTrain has done so and why we can't do that for this manual,
or a number of other issues -- but I will be content to follow those issues up through the official channels.

But if "confusion" or "frustration" is a concern that prevents an open process, well, we have that already -- and in spades -- so I fail to see what would be lost by changing to that hypothetical open process.

I'll leave this topic with a final thought: Bureaucracy is often defined as "a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape, and proliferation"(4). The manual process has taken over a year, this has been undeniably a source of confusion and frustration for many. Those concerned have been given multiple different and conflicting reasons why that is the case and no offers of revision to the process has been made. To me, all of it comes off as officialism and red tape and is discouraging to see when it is happening to what I believe should be one of the easiest ways to get involved in TRMN.

Having said my piece, I wish you and everyone else a wonderful week.

Sincerely,
William E. Karnesky Sr, CBM
Gunner's Mate 3/c, RMN
HMS Eardhsidh Kamerling
Gunners Mate 3/c Karnesky,

To start off nobody at BuComm has refused anybody’s offer of help. The officer who oversees Publications is on vacation. When she returns, she will be apprised of any offers of assistance that we’re made. It will be up to her to accept or decline those offers.

The next thing I wanted to address is the Publications process.

You referenced that the publication we have been talking about was previously approved in 2018. Manuals can approved and still be the review process. In the case of this manual, it originally contained the information of two manuals. It covered Marksmanship & Qualification Badges. That project was drafted, designed, edited, published, reviewed, updated & submitted for final review.

BuComm strives to put out the best materials that it can. It’s this process of that can, in some cases, that can force projects to take a year or more.

In its original form, it was approved. It was later decided that two publications would better serve the membership, As soon as we decided to break content into two pieces, that starts the design process all over again.

What eventually came out the other side was RMA 3-03 Marksmanship Handbook & TRMN-07 Badges & Devices Manual. These projects are in the review process. Once we get back all the review notes, we can make any necessary changes and push these items out.

Laura also noted that we are short staffed in Publications. A lot of technical know how goes into understanding how Illustrator & InDesign work. Those programs are professional grade and are not for everyone. This is what plays into us being short-staffed.

Sincerely,

Sir Michael J Timko, GCE, MC, CR, SC, OG
Commodore, RMN
Deputy Space Lord, Bucoj
 #29143  by Laura Lochen, 1SL
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:51 am
@William Karnesky

I want to commend you for your care and empathize with your frustration. It is real and I DO understand that this is an area that our club can grow and be successful in if we don't screw it up.

Honestly, this whole darn thing is a volunteer organization and we live and die by that. We live by the skill, commitment, and incredible amounts of time put in by the people who sincerely love this org and want to make it better. The whole thing is not about "loving bureaucracy" but more about controlling the chaos that is massive growth over 7 years, lack of involvement, major change, and the list goes on.

Being in a bureau, a fleet staff position, a triad position, etc is not about elevated rank or authority, it's about elevated responsibility, time commitment, and engagement. I can't say that all the people doing these jobs always make the right decisions in the right amount of time, but I can say they all care significantly about what we do here and about the members we serve.

As far as following the chain and "telling us what's wrong", I'm happy to get your suggestions, we always welcome help or input. I can also probably tell you we've said it to ourselves more than once. Let's try to go through your questions:

I still don't understand
how copyright concerns and "professionalism" prohibit the release of a draft;
- we have to abide by all copyrights for art and also all requirements of our agreement with BuNine and David Weber. While this does not always pertain to an internal manual, it often does so we follow the same process regardless. There is no way to tell if the people in a job will always stay the same but if the process does we will not lose incredibly valuable institutional knowledge.
or why drafts for something so basic as the Marksmanship manual are considered under the Official Secrets Act;
No manual that defines the process is "simple" honestly. I wouldn't go as far as declaring it "official secrets act" but I do agree with not releasing it far and wide. This is an awesome way to delay a manual's release for years. I am in a job that requires a review of materials at each level. It can take forever. If we release a draft to get "member feedback" all the time we will delay the process even longer.
or why people were asked to "step up" if such offers were just going to be refused;
The offer wasn't refused but he was asking that people step up to review more than just their "pet" project. I didn't see that happening.
or why we were told it was "in review", or "If it's not ready for MantiCon, it will be shortly afterwards", or other variations of "nearly complete" if it was not the case(3);
This is simply a case of, as Michael said, getting two manuals condensed after one had been created. In short, someone looked at the manuals and changed their mind. It made sense behind the scenes. I do get that this is a great way to make it difficult for those in waiting and sometimes when we try and make a "good" decision it turns out more complicated.
or simply whether or not future manuals can be released to the Wiki as BuTrain has done so and why we can't do that for this manual,
Sure, I know we can do this for this manual and probably will do it for more in the futue...but, guess what, they released the Butrain manual on the Wiki because it is changeable and editable....and someone wants s PDF version. So there you go. We will please 75% and frustrate the hell out of 25% no matter how we do it. However, we do feel the Wiki will be the space for this stuff in the future. :-)

This probably didn't answer all of your concerns but its what I can do. No one working here is trying to stomp on what we do just to make themselves better. No one here wants to be working on a manual for over a year, but on occasion, these things happen. Hopefully, we can get this thing out soon so you can use is and make TRMN a better place.
 #29144  by Frank Gonzalez
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:02 am
Can we volunteer to help without it counting towards a hat? I can do both Adobe programs but don't have any open "hat" slots .

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 #29145  by Laura Lochen, 1SL
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:05 am
Maybe we
Can figure something out Frank. Check with Michael Timko to see what you can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 #29146  by Frank Gonzalez
 Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:06 am
Laura Lochen, 1SL wrote:Maybe we
Can figure something out Frank. Check with Michael Timko to see what you can do.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Will do ma'am.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Donate

Make a donation for Big Cat Rescue



Make a donation for the Most Regal Order of Queen Elizabeth

About us

Welcome to The Royal Manticoran Navy: The Official Honor Harrington Fan Association's Forums. We are here to celebrate the work of David Weber and the universe he has created in his Honor Harrington books. Our hierarchy structure is set up based on what is in the books. We have gone to great lengths to make sure we are as true to the books as possible, using the books, and input from David Weber and Ad Astra as our guide. We want you to have a positive fandom experience, so please explore all our site has to offer and if you like what you see, feel free to join us. All we ask is that you remember one thing; no matter what you do, Do It With Honor!

Our Conventions

Check out our conventions!